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Canadian writer Sylvain Neuvel makes a thrilling debut with Sleeping Giants, a gripping sci-fi adventure that is innovative both in plot and structure. It all begins when a young girl stumbles (literally) into the archaeological find of the century: an enormous robotic hand created by an ancient alien race.

Fast-forward some 25 years, and that girl is now a scientist in charge of a military-run operation to find and retrieve other parts of that robot, which could be the greatest weapon the world has ever seen. Told in journal entries of the various characters as well as their interviews with a mysterious man who works as a go-between for the project and the government higher-ups, Sleeping Giants is an imaginative tour de force that will appeal to science fiction and mystery fans alike. 

How did the story first come to you: was it that image of the giant hand, an idea about the plot, a particular character, or something else?
The idea for the book came while watching Japanese anime about a giant robot. I asked my son if he’d like a toy robot but he wanted to know everything about it before I built it. We were watching "Grendizer" together and I started thinking about what it would be like if we found some giant alien artifact in real life. That got me started, but I tend to picture things before I write them. I need a strong visual to get me going. For this book, it was the little girl in the giant metal hand. 

How did you arrive at the format for the book (a combination of interview transcripts, news briefs and journal entries)? Did you try other approaches first?
Not really. I knew it was going to be epistolary from the start. That said, I couldn’t find the right way to do it at first. I wanted to switch perspective between chapters, but I thought they would feel somewhat disconnected. I needed something to hold everything together, a common thread. That’s when I got the idea for the interviewer. Once I figured him out, everything else fell into place.

Was it difficult to figure out the structure—which moments to show and what to skip over?
Yes. I wrote the prologue first. Then I structured the whole book. That took a while. I’d picture a scene in my head, then I’d figure out the best way to present it. Do I show it as a future plan, while it’s happening, or do I deal with the consequences before I let the reader know what really happened? Who gets to talk about it? The one who is most affected by the situation or the one with more knowledge about the facts? Can I create more anticipation if I change the time or the point of view? Sometimes, the best thing to do is to skip that moment completely and let the readers figure it out on their own. 

Reading the book, it’s hard not to “cast” the characters. For instance, I kept seeing the interviewer as Victor Garber, who plays Sydney Bristow’s dad on “Alias.” The evolution of his sympathies through the book was really interesting. Did you have a particular model or type in mind for that character?
I love the interviewer. I wouldn’t object to your casting, but I couldn’t really see his face when I wrote the book. He was all about the voice for me. Now, if I were making the movie, I’d probably go for Idris Elba, or Ray Stevenson, the way he looked in "Dexter," season 7.

"Would such a discovery bring humanity together, or would we wage wars over it?"

Do you find it scary or comforting to imagine a race of super-advanced aliens out there keeping an eye on us?
I think the most interesting question is how we’d deal with that knowledge. Would such a discovery bring humanity together, or would we wage wars over it? Fear of the other is a frequent theme in the news these days and I think it begs the question as to how we’d deal with a different species. I’m much more scared of us than I am of them. 

What books or movies do you see as having influenced Sleeping Giants?
I wanted this story to be about us. Close Encounters of the Third Kind is probably the closest thing to what I was aiming for. Here’s a movie about an alien encounter and we’re watching a guy sculpting mashed potatoes and wrecking his backyard. I loved that. Contact is also similar in spirit to Sleeping Giants. The book is also part political thriller. I see a lot of The Hunt for Red October in there as well. 

Did you learn anything while researching the book that surprised you?
I learned a whole lot of interesting things researching that book. The science was all new to me, so was everything military. What surprised me the most was probably how many websites are dedicated to gathering evidence of secret government bases. I was looking for one plausible site to build one. I ended up with dozens to choose from. The time and energy that went into many of these websites is absolutely fascinating. 

You have a PhD in linguistics—what originally interested you about that area? What effect do you think this background has had on your writing?
I dropped out of high school when I was 15. When I went back to school for a B.A., linguistics seemed like a good idea, a way to combine my passion for language and science. I’m not sure what kind of influence my linguistics background has on my writing. I understand the mechanics behind some of the humor, for example, but I don’t know if I would have done the same thing without that knowledge. There’s a linguist on the team, though, and chances are he’ll have to work a bit throughout the series. 

What do you like to read for fun?
These days, I’m looking for quick reads. I like books with science in them, but I’ll try just about anything if it looks interesting. Favorite one I read lately: The Flicker Men by Ted Kosmatka. That book is so good. I wish I had more time. I don’t read nearly as much as I’d like to, and I buy books way faster then I go through them. I think it was Stephen King who said: “If you don’t have time to read, you don’t have time to write.” To that, I’d like to add time to exercise, fix the house, build robots . . .  

I’ve read that you like to build toys and small robots for your son—are there any that you’re especially proud of?
I do. I like to make physical objects. I work on a computer all day, then I go home and I write on the computer. I like to build things. I haven’t in the past couple years, but I usually spend six or seven months making my Halloween costume in my spare time. I built a robot from my book for my son. It looks good, but it’s not really playable. The idea was cool: it comes in pieces that are held together with magnets, but it keeps falling apart. I’m shopping for a 3D printer so I can build him a better one. I made him a spaceship bed, inspired by the Raptors in “Battlestar Galactica,” with a cannon, a joystick, some buttons. He really likes it. I do too. [photo at right]

Sleeping Giants is Book 1 of the Themis Files; can you talk a little about what we can look forward to in the sequel(s)? Anything else you’re excited about working on right now?
I don’t want to spoil anything, but I can tell you that the stakes are even higher in book two. There are some questions being answered, some new ones being asked. There will be at least three in the Themis Files. I’m having a blast in that universe, and I love the people who live in it. I can’t wait to share. 

 

RELATED CONTENT: Read our review of Sleeping Giants.

 

Author photo by James Andrew Rosen.

Canadian writer Sylvain Neuvel makes a thrilling debut with Sleeping Giants, a gripping sci-fi adventure that is innovative both in plot and structure.
Interview by

Yaa Gyasi sounds a bit unnerved by the prepublication buzz surrounding her stunning first novel, Homegoing, and the changes its enthusiastic early reception portend for her life.

“I’ve wanted to be a writer my whole life, so this is really the fulfillment of a long dream,” she says during a call to her home in Berkeley, California. She and her boyfriend, a writer she met when they were both at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, have recently moved to the Bay Area.

“I feel fortunate not only that my dream came true but that it’s coming true in such a huge way,” Gyasi continues. “On the other hand, the stakes feel really high in a way I hadn’t anticipated. I find myself being a lot more anxious than when I thought no one would read the book. I feel a lot of outside noise has come in now in a way that it never had before. I had always been writing for myself. And now it’s becoming more public. That’s definitely an end goal of a writer, to share their work with readers. But it is a little nerve-racking.”

Gyasi, who turns 27 in late June, spent seven years developing her first novel. Homegoing is a sweeping, emotionally and morally complex epic that begins in the 18th century in the British African colony that is now Ghana. There, two half-sisters—Effia from the slave-trading Fante nation and Esi from the Asante warrior nation—are born and live nearly intersecting lives without ever meeting. Effia is born during a violent fire. As a young woman, she is married off to a British official as a local wife and lives in the upper realms of the Cape Coast Castle, seat of British colonial power. Esi is sold into slavery and imprisoned in the bowels of the castle to await a harrowing journey over the ocean to the American South.

From there, in beautifully textured alternating chapters in which water imagery represents Esi’s line and fire imagery is linked to Effia’s, the novel explores the lives of these women’s descendants. Esi’s progeny live in the U.S. as slaves and then as free people under Jim Crow laws. Effia’s descendants remain in Ghana and experience the effects of British colonialism and bloody internal African warfare. In the end, in the 21st century, the two lines of descendants experience a poignant kind of “homegoing.”

“People in the present have a tendency to believe that we are necessarily better, smarter or more moral than the people who lived before us.”

“The thing that I was most interested in was the question of what does it mean to be black in America today,” Gyasi says. “So I was very much focused on those last two chapters. I wanted to get to the African immigrant and the African American today. When I first thought of this novel all those years ago, I thought I would toggle back and forth between the characters that make up the first few chapters and the characters that make up the last few chapters to show a then-and-now thing. But then at some point I realized that I was more interested in being able to see the way something moves over a long period of time, in this case slavery, how slavery dovetailed off into this colonialism and institutionalized racism depending on where and how you were looking.”

The novel is propelled by a profound and wrenching sense of history. Yet its characters are emotionally compelling rather than didactic. This is partly because of Gyasi’s “exploratory” style of research. “I didn’t want to feel stifled by the research or the need to get everything exactly, exactly right,” she explains. “I just wanted to have it be this atmospheric thing that was in the background, so that the characters were foregrounded and they were just reacting to a moment in history, as we do now. You know, things are happening around us, but they don’t feel like they always explain our actions and our choices.”

The novel is also shaped by Gyasi’s deep imagining of events and by her family’s experiences. Born in Ghana, she came to the United States when she was 2 years old. Her father is a professor of French and Francophile African literature, and her mother is a nurse. She is the middle of three children and the only girl. Before settling in Huntsville, Alabama, when she was 9, the family also lived in Ohio and Illinois. She went to Stanford University and won a Chappell-Lougee scholarship to travel to Ghana and research her novel.

“I’ve only been back [to Ghana] twice,” Gyasi says. “The first time was with my entire family at age 11. And the second time was when I was 20. I had just a very thin idea for a novel in mind. I had never been to the central region where my mother is from. So I wanted to spend some time there.”

Her visit to Ghana’s Cape Coast Castle was the revelation that inspired the novel. “The tour guide started talking about the fact that a lot of British soldiers would marry the local Fante women, and the children from these marriages were sometimes sent to England for school and then came back and started to form the region’s middle class. I’d never heard much about the Cape Coast Castle or about Ghana’s participation in the slave trade. All of this was really new to me. And then the tour guide showed us the majesty of the upstairs level of the castle. It’s beautiful. Then after showing us this upstairs level, he takes us down to see the male and female dungeons. That was also a very striking experience for me—kind of the literal upstairs downstairs thing. And I thought, OK, this is where I’ll start.”

Interestingly, Gyasi says it was reading Gabriel García Márquez’s One Hundred Years of Solitude that gave her permission to write her hugely ambitious novel. “That’s such a great book to read, especially if you are about to write a big, messy novel with a lot of family. Just the idea that a reader can look back at the family tree and that doesn’t totally mess up their reading experience was something I got from that book. [Homegoing has a helpful diagram of the characters’ family tree at the beginning of the novel.] I heard from people who had grievances about how many years it was covering or that there are too many characters. But having read Márquez, I could always say he did it, and it was fine.”

Gyasi adds, “People say that first books tend to be more quiet. They tend to be a lot more autobiographical. But I grew up in Alabama. I was a Ghanaian immigrant. When I was in Ghana, I didn’t feel Ghanaian. When I was in America, I didn’t feel quite American. I was kind of living on the edges of these two identities. I’d always been interested in that, and in what we had in common—the African American and the African immigrant. In that way, this book feels incredibly personal to me.”

Asked about the legacy of slavery that Homegoing explores, Gyasi says, “When we talk about slavery today, there’s a sense that it’s this thing that happened a million years ago, so why do we feel like it has any effect on our life today? And I always think that’s a ridiculous way to think about it.

“People in the present have a tendency to believe that we are necessarily better, smarter or more moral than the people who lived before us. We wouldn’t have done this awful thing. We would be the ones who stand up and say, ‘Not me.’ But in the moment I think that is a much harder thing to do. So I was really interested in the people who could say that or who tried to say that, whether they were successful or not. I did want to have their voices in the novel as well. Hopefully, this book is an addition to the conversation about why we still need to think about it today.”

 

Author photo credit Michael Lionstar.

This article was originally published in the June 2016 issue of BookPage. Download the entire issue for the Kindle or Nook.

Yaa Gyasi sounds a bit unnerved by the prepublication buzz surrounding her stunning first novel, Homegoing, and the changes its enthusiastic early reception portend for her life.
Interview by

Part mystery, part coming-of-age novel, Joanna Cannon’s debut The Trouble with Goats and Sheep is set during an uncharacteristically hot British summer. When a local woman disappears from the tight-knit community of The Avenue, young Grace and Tilly embark on a quest to find out what happened to their missing neighbor. Cannon discusses how her work as a psychiatrist influences her writing, the nature of outsiders and remembering life in 1970s England.

You’ve had a really interesting career path. Can you tell us how you came to be a writer?  
I started writing a blog when I became a junior doctor, to empty my head of all the distressing things I saw on the wards. Obviously, I didn’t write about real patients, but I found it therapeutic to write about my reaction to the situations in which I found myself. The blog became very popular, and people began suggesting I write a novel. And so (very) secretly, I began writing the book that would eventually become The Trouble with Goats and Sheep.

The 1970s was a time when many of the societal changes that had occurred in the cities had begun to hit the suburbs. How do you see those changes manifest in Grace’s community?
One of the reasons I set Goats and Sheep in the 1970s was because of the changes in the structure of communities. Very much like today, it was a time when people were having to adjust their idea of community and their own preconceptions. This is reflected in The Avenue with Harold, for example, who wraps his racism in a Union Jack and calls it patriotism, and Grace’s father, who understands he has to change, but isn’t quite sure how to go about it.

Because Grace is the narrator, she seems to be the more dominant one in the relationship, but Tilly has the stronger, more assured sense of who she is. How do you think their relationship develops over the course of the book?
I think that’s definitely something for each reader to decide for themselves, but I did want to explore the dynamic between Grace and Tilly as the story progresses. It’s around that age we first start noticing the differences between ourselves and other children, and subconsciously modifying our behavior in order to be accepted. Grace is obviously desperate to be liked by the ‘cooler’ kids, whereas Tilly is more comfortable in her own skin.

Is the character of Walter Bishop based on a real person?
No, Walter (and all the other characters) are very much products of my imagination. Working in psychiatry, however, I do meet a lot of people (like Walter) who live on the periphery of a community, and are never really noticed until something goes wrong. I wrote Goats and Sheep because I wanted to give them a voice, and also to explore what it must feel like to be subjected to so much misunderstanding and prejudice.

Were you a big reader as a kid? Who are some of your favorite literary heroes or heroines from childhood?
I am an only child of an only child, and as a kid, some of my best friends lived within the pages of a book. I was very fortunate that my parents had the foresight to take me to my local library every week, where I would always renew Little Women and The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, because I couldn’t bear the thought of the books going home with anyone else.

I read that you created a Spotify list of 1970s music to get you in the mood of the novel. What are some of the songs on it?
Oh my word, all sorts of ’70s gems! There’s a lot of Suzi Quatro on there, some UK glam rock, and (of course) Elvis. It wouldn’t be a ’70s playlist without a good dose of Elvis.

Grace and Tilly interview their neighbors about the whereabouts of God, eliciting a variety of ideas and personal concepts. Did writing this novel change your own point of view about religion?  
I think the concept of religion is such a personal one, and it means so many different things to so many different people. There is “traditional” religion in the book, of course, in the shape of the vicar and St. Anthony’s (and Mrs. Roper and Mrs. Forbes fighting over who loves Jesus more), but you can also find God (or love, or spirituality) in many different places (God is everywhere, as Grace often points out to the adults around her). I don’t think it changed my point of view, but it certainly made me explore the idea.

This novel has been optioned for television. Do you think you’ll be involved in the production at all? What would your dream cast be?
It would be wonderful to be involved, because it’s an area I know very little about and it would be so fascinating. I think for that reason, I’m more than happy to hand over the reins to someone else. It would be good to watch from the edge, though, and keep an eye on my characters. I’m very visual when I’m writing, and I tend to see things cinematographically, so it’s very exciting to see how someone else interprets my words. I’m not sure about a dream cast. I think, especially for Grace and Tilly, it would be good to have completely unknown actors, who don’t arrive with a history of other roles behind them.

Describe your perfect writing day.
My perfect writing day definitely starts with a very long dog walk to clear my head. I always get up around 3 a.m. (which is a hangover from medical school and working on the wards), and I walk my German Shepherd six miles through the fields and we watch the sun come up. I tend to write in the morning and early afternoon, so I think my perfect writing day would have to be one where there were few distractions. Maybe if Twitter crashed, it would help!

What are you working on now?
I’m currently working on Book Two. When I wrote Goats and Sheep, I never expected it to escape from my laptop, so it was truly just me and a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea people would be analyzing my words in newspapers and on the television, whereas now, I’ve had experience of that, and I’m aware of people out there, who will read my thoughts. I think you have to try to put that to one side, and tell the story you want to tell, in the way you want to tell it. It’s the best way to write: just you, a pen and paper and a story you believe in.

Author photograph by Philippa Edge.

 

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of The Trouble with Goats and Sheep.

Part mystery, part coming-of-age novel, Joanna Cannon’s debut The Trouble with Goats and Sheep is set during an uncharacteristically hot British summer. When a local woman disappears from the tight-knit community of The Avenue, young Grace and Tilly embark on a quest to find out what happened to their missing neighbor. Cannon discusses how her work as a psychiatrist influences her writing, the nature of outsiders and remembering life in 1970s England.
Interview by

Poet Liz Kay makes her fiction debut with the darkly funny Monsters: A Love Story. Nebraska poet Stacey Lane and Hollywood bad boy Tommy DeMarco launch a whirlwind romance when he options her poetry collection for his latest film project, but their story is no fairy tale. Both Tommy and Stacey have hot tempers, sharp tongues and plenty of baggage, but Kay manages to make readers root for them even when their flaws aren't especially lovable. In a Q&A, Kay talks about messy characters, the romance of Gone Girl (yes, really) and the reason she feels sorry for Gwyneth Paltrow.

Monsters is an unusual choice for the title of a love story. Can you tell us the story behind how it was chosen?
Well, I have to admit that Monsters was a working title. I assumed someone along the way was going to make me change it so I didn’t dwell on the title as I might have otherwise. I did want a title that would give readers a clear sense of what to expect or at least that they should definitely not expect a typical love story. Like the monster in Stacey’s book of poetry, Tommy and Stacey are beautiful on the outside, and their story, told in brief might read beautifully too, but scratch that glamorous surface and the raw mess that comes with being human bubbles up. 

On the surface, the story of an ordinary woman falling in love with a Hollywood star sounds like a fairy tale, but Monsters is actually a very realistic look at a relationship between two adults. Why were you drawn to writing this type of romance?
I’ve really always been drawn toward messier characters and stories. I have never, that I can remember, rooted for a plucky heroine, so it was especially important to me that Stacey be real in ways that might challenge us. As a culture, we seem to like our female characters flawed, but only in superficial ways, only in ways that make them more relatable—an extra few pounds around the middle, a little clumsy on her feet. That’s just not that interesting to me. I am more interested, ultimately, in readers’ reactions to the characters than anything, and I didn’t want characters that went down too easily. 

"I didn’t want characters that went down too easily."

A few years ago, I was reading Animal Farm to my sons (I know it’s not a children’s story, but like Tommy, I don’t have the best boundaries), and the youngest was really upset with Napoleon. He just hated him, hated what he was doing to the other characters. The middle kid, who takes after me, said, “Well they can’t just sit around drinking tea all the time. That wouldn’t be a good story at all.” I think he was 11, but this captures my aesthetic pretty accurately.

The behind-the-scenes stuff in the movie industry really rings true. How did you research this part of the book?
I read a lot about the specifics of adaptation and the process of making a movie start to finish. I wanted to get the vocabulary right, and I wanted to have enough reference points for that world to feel solid, but the fact that Stacey, the narrator, is new to all of it gave me a good bit of leeway. I particularly liked reading interviews, and most of them quickly confirmed what I’d already suspected, which is that artists are pretty typical across the board. Whatever medium they’re working in, they’re plagued with the same peculiar mix of ego and insecurity and bravado. For me, the focus was always the characters, even the minor ones like Joe, the screenwriter. As a reader, if I believe in the characters, I believe in the world they introduce me to. 

How does your background as a poet inform your fiction writing?
I felt a lot of freedom writing Monsters, in part because I had zero expectations going into it. It was really self-indulgent in a lot of ways—I was head-over-heels in love with these characters and I just wanted to be with them and to see what happened to them, and I didn’t actually care if it was any good. I haven’t written a word of fiction since a short story class maybe my sophomore year of college, so failure seemed not just possible, but inevitable. I think once you’ve embraced failure as the most likely outcome, you can approach the work with a level of enthusiasm and almost recklessness that’s really energizing. 

That said, I still write very much like a poet—line by line. I count syllables and read it aloud to listen for rhythm. I can’t really move on from a scene until it’s perfect, so I polish every page, every paragraph, every sentence as I go. I’m also pretty discerning about description, and having a poet for a narrator allowed me to exploit that. If Stacey sees something, it matters. I wanted every image she bothers to tell you about to carry a lot of weight.

The banter in this book is topnotch. How did you manage to make your dialogue crackle? 
Thank you! Maybe the dialogue picked up some energy because I loved writing it so much. Dialogue is something I don’t use at all in poetry, so it was one part of the novel that really felt like the opposite of work. It’s definitely not something I’ve ever studied in the novels I’ve read, but I always perk up when I come across dialogue that sounds real. If it doesn’t sound like something a living person would say, I’m not that interested in reading it. The best preparation for me is probably the fact that I’ve surrounded myself with smart, funny, slightly profane friends, and because many of my friends are either artists or academics our conversations can shift rapidly across subjects and levels of import much like Tommy’s and Stacey’s. 

If Monsters were turned into a Hollywood film, who would you pick to star as Stacey and Tommy?
It took me all of about a tenth of a second to settle on who would be Stacey. Gwyneth Paltrow obviously doesn’t match the physical descriptions of Stacey, but what I love about Gwyneth Paltrow is that she captures the catch-22 for women. She does everything right. She really works at doing and being all the things we demand of her (and all women), and then we hate her even more for it. Be very, very thin, we say, and then Gwyneth makes her kale smoothies and doesn’t give her children Cheetos and we’re all like Jesus Christ, lighten up. Eat a cheeseburger. She, or at least her public persona, captures the fact that in a culture that’s still as deeply misogynistic as ours, it’s just impossible to win at being a woman. 

"[I]n a culture that’s still as deeply misogynistic as ours, it’s just impossible to win at being a woman."

Tommy was much harder to figure out. He’s such an amalgamation of things. Maybe he has James Franco’s literary interests and Leonardo DiCaprio’s dating habits and George Clooney’s fame. But ultimately, whoever it was I was imagining, their public persona would start to get in the way. In any case, I did stumble upon an answer, which is Tom Hardy. And it works for me primarily because I don’t know that much about him. I certainly didn’t have him in mind in writing the book and so he works as kind of a blank slate. Physically, he’s a good fit—a little pretty, a little scruffed up. He looks mean in a lot of the pictures I’ve seen, so that works. 

Do you have a favorite love story?
In recent years, I’d have to say Gone Girl, which I know no one else reads as a love story so that likely tells you a good deal about me. I’m also just a huge Jane Austen fan, and I love how she’s able to communicate so much about the dynamics of attraction in these very careful, polite exchanges. 

What are you working on next?
I have a couple of projects in the works, but I’m probably most interested in a novel that’s examining how comfortable the patriarchy can be for the women at the top. I’m really interested in critiquing not just the culture itself but the ways that we’re all complicit in it. Moments when our ideals come into conflict with our desires tend to give off the most spark for me, so that’s the project I keep coming back to these days.

RELATED CONTENT: Read our review of Monsters.

Poet Liz Kay talks about messy characters, the romance of Gone Girl (yes, really) and the reason she feels sorry for Gwyneth Paltrow.

Interview by

Unlike most first-time authors, Cynthia D’Aprix Sweeney didn’t start writing fiction until her mid 40s. But that’s not the only thing that makes Sweeney and her debut novel stand out.

As of press time, The Nest, which was published in March, has spent 13 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Ecco, which paid a seven-figure advance for the manuscript, has printed 275,000 copies and sold rights in 22 countries; meanwhile, the novel has been optioned for film with “Transparent” creator Jill Soloway (who is also a friend of Sweeney’s) as a producer. Clearly, this story of four adult siblings, who lose an anticipated inheritance thanks to their eldest brother’s big mistake, is resonating in a major way.

We asked Sweeney, who lives in Los Angeles, a few questions about her breakout debut. 

How did it feel to see your first novel hit the bestseller list?
Like everything else that’s happened in my life this year, it was a completely surreal experience. I think the morning I was at a hotel with my husband and the New York Times Book Review was delivered to us—the week my book was at number 2—along with room service breakfast was the most out-of-body moment. I’m still not sure I’ve processed the whole thing.

Early on, you considered going into publishing. How do you think your writing career would be different if you had? What do you think your years as a marketing copywriter brought to this book? 
The first question isn’t one I can really answer. I don’t look back and try to reimagine decades of my life on a different path—it’s too vertigo inducing. I also try to find value in my past decisions, even the ones that I quickly regretted or realized I had to undo. My years as a freelance writer were incredibly important because I grew into a very disciplined and focused worker. I understand that writing is a job, and you need to show up for work every day. I believe that some days are easier than others, but I don’t believe in waiting for inspiration to strike. 

Now that The Nest is in the hands of readers, have there been any reactions to it that surprised you?
I always described the book as being about family. It’s surprised me to hear it described by other people as a book about money. The plot centers on money, of course, but I don’t think it’s what the book is about, per se. We don’t talk a lot about money in this country—I think the book has given people the opportunity to talk about something that is important in everyone’s life but rarely discussed in public.

This book really delves into the relationships between adult siblings—the deep connection, but also the way that the family you create can sometimes be a point of conflict with the family you were born into. Why did writing about adult siblings appeal to you?
I grew up in a very Irish-Italian Catholic environment and almost everyone I grew up with had lots of brothers and sisters. I’m the oldest of four, and I always described our family as “small”—and it was small compared to most of my friends’ families. I’ve always been interested in sibling dynamics and how those relationships become more intense as everyone ages.

Again, from a plot perspective The Nest is about four adult siblings fighting over money, but I believe the book is really about the one thing we all inherit simply by being born: our place in a family narrative. We just become the youngest or the oldest and often are assigned other convenient labels—the smart one, the pretty one, the funny one—that may be rooted in truth but are still reductive and hard to shake off. 

I’m also interested in the idea that because you share DNA and a history with people, you will necessarily share values or a common vision for the future. Sometimes you will and sometimes you won’t and either way is okay!

The characters in The Nest are struggling with something we all have to face—to differing degrees depending on circumstances—but all of us, eventually, have to reconcile the story we inherit with the one we want to write for ourselves. It’s hard to claim your own desires and take responsibility for your own choices—and mistakes. The Nest is definitely a book about making mistakes and discovering who in your life will forgive you and help you when things are tough. 

Do you agree with Warren Buffet’s maxim that “a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing”?
I am the worst financial adviser on Earth, but that sounds like a wise plan! I mainly believe that it’s a very complicated, personal decision and depends on the people involved.

You’ve lived on both coasts. How do you think attitudes about money and wealth are different in Los Angeles vs. New York City?
New York City is a much older city than Los Angeles and so it has layers of old money, which is a very particular and exclusive kind of club. Los Angeles money is newer and it’s a little flashier, but more inclusive. If you can pay, you belong! There’s plenty of that in New York City, too, but there is also plenty of the “who are your parents and grandparents and Yale or Harvard?” kind of exclusivity that doesn’t really exist in Los Angeles, a place where people can reinvent themselves week to week if they choose. 

What would you blow a huge inheritance on?
An apartment in New York City, and if there was any left over, a little place in Rome.

What are you working on next?
I hope I’m working on a new novel, but it’s a little too soon to tell.

 

This article was originally published in the August 2016 issue of BookPage. Download the entire issue for the Kindle or Nook.

Unlike most first-time authors, Cynthia D’Aprix Sweeney didn’t start writing fiction until her mid 40s. But that’s not the only thing that makes Sweeney and her debut novel stand out.
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What does it mean to pursue the American dream in the 21st century? To find the answer, writer Imbolo Mbue traces the lives of two very different couples in the wake of the financial crisis of 2008 in her insightful debut. We asked her a few questions about her own experience moving to America from Cameroon, her love for New York City and who she’d like to see play her characters on screen.

Your own immigration story is almost as dramatic as the Jongas’. Can you tell us about it?
My immigration story has some parallels to the Jongas. Like them, I moved from Limbe, Cameroon, to the United States, though I came here at a younger age to attend college, unlike Jende and Neni who moved here as adults. I lived in Harlem for several years, so like them, I was also an African immigrant living in Harlem. That, however, is where much of our similarities end—most of their story, and the struggles they endured, was inspired by stories told to me by other immigrants.

You have been in the United States for more than 10 years. Do you get to visit Limbe? What do you miss about it?
I’ve been back to Limbe a couple of times to visit and even after all these years, I still miss it. I miss the utter simplicity of life there, and the delicious food and laid-back ambiance.

What made you decide to write a novel?
I was inspired to write this story after I saw chauffeurs and executives on a Manhattan street. Being that I had lost my job in the recession, I was curious about how the recession had affected New Yorkers from different walks of life, so I began writing a story about a fictional Lehman Brothers executive and his chauffeur, and the different ways in which their lives were impacted after Lehman Brothers collapsed. The more I wrote the story, the more obsessed I became with telling it.

Neni is such an incredible character. There is almost nothing she won’t do to make her dreams come true, and some of her actions are pretty shocking. How do you feel about Neni, and what inspired her character?
Thank you—she is indeed an incredible character. She believes in the accessibility of the American Dream, and she is convinced America can give her the life she could never have gotten in Limbe. Because she had limited opportunities to make something out of her life in Limbe, she is mindful of what a privilege it is to be living in New York City and attending college with aspirations of one day becoming a pharmacist. As a result, she will not let anything or anyone stand in the way of her dream, something I find admirable even if I do not entirely agree with how she goes about doing it. Still, I do empathize with her, because she was inspired by women I grew up around in Limbe, and immigrant women I’ve met in America—strong-willed women with limited power and resources who make tough choices because they believe they have to do what they need to do for themselves and their children.

There is so much about New York City in this novel—Jende considers Columbus Circle the center of the world since it is in the center of New York City, and Neni muses that “while there existed great towns and cities all over the world, there was a certain kind of pleasure, a certain type of adventurous and audacious childhood, that only New York City could offer a child.” What does New York City mean to you?
I love New York. It’s a pity that phrase has become a cliché but there really is no better way for me to express how I feel about my adopted hometown. As strange and chaotic a place as it can be sometimes, it was only when I moved to New York City that I finally felt at home in America. Maybe something about New York reminds me of Limbe. Or perhaps it’s because the city, in my opinion, welcomes anyone from anywhere. I’m not entirely sure. What I’m sure is that I have a great sense of belonging here, and as an immigrant, that means a lot.

The Edwards family has achieved the American dream, but it certainly hasn’t made them happy. Do you think observing the Edwardses made Jende and Neni see America and their dreams of success differently?
No, I don’t think so. The Jongas, Neni in particular, are so determined to achieve career and material success that not even seeing the price of holding unto it will deter them. The truth is that both the Edwards and Jongas are unhappy in their own ways, à la Tolstoy. One family is dreaming of achieving material success and the other family already has material success, but we can see the prices they each have to pay.

The themes of this novel are very timely. One character says of America that “we as a country have forgotten how to welcome all kinds of strangers to our home.” How do you see novels like yours fitting into the debate on immigration?
I think it’s a novel people on either side of the immigration debate can use to support their arguments. If you’re pro-immigration, there’s something in the novel to support your argument. If you’re anti-immigration, there’s something in there to support your argument, too. My goal was to tell the story completely and leave it up to the reader to interpret it in whichever way fits their worldviews.

I don’t want to give away the ending. But when you were writing, did you know what was going to happen to the Jongas?
Yes, from the very first draft, I knew how the story was going to end and I couldn’t change it even if I wanted to.

This book has been optioned for film—do you have any news on that project? A dream cast?
I don’t have any news but if someday the movie is made, I’d be very eager to see the scenes between Neni Jonga and Cindy Edwards—those two women are fire and ice and their relationship exposes a lot about class and power.

Who are some of your favorite African writers? Anyone new that we should be looking for?
I read Chigozie Obioma’s The Fishermen last year and deeply loved it. It took me back to my childhood in Limbe, and to me there’s nothing quite like a book that reminds me of what it was like being an African child growing up in Africa. I had a similar experience reading NoViolet Bulawayo’s We Need New Names, another novel I loved by a young African writer. I’m very much looking forward to both of their second novels.

Were you a big reader as a kid? What were some of your favorite books?
I was a voracious reader as a kid, though I barely read any children’s books. My favorite stories growing up were Shakespeare’s The Merchant of Venice and Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities, even though thinking about it now, I have no idea how such books could deeply affect a young child.

What are you working on next?
I’m working on my reading list—too many wonderful books coming out and not enough time to read them, so I’m trying to read as fast as I can!

RELATED CONTENT: Read our review of Behold the Dreamers.

What does it mean to pursue the American dream in the 21st century? To find an answer, Imbolo Mbue traces the lives of two very different couples in the wake of the financial crisis of 2008 in her insightful debut. We asked her a few questions about her own experience moving to America from Cameroon, her love for New York City and who she’d like to see play her characters on screen.

Interview by

Our October Top Pick in Fiction is Brit Bennett's The Mothers, an elegant and insightful coming of-age story set in Southern California. We asked the 26-year-old Bennett, who has just been named one of the National Book Award Foundation's "5 under 35," a few questions about her engrossing debut.

You started writing The Mothers when you were around the same age that Nadia is at the start of the story, and now you’re more or less the same age as Nadia at the novel’s end. Are there parts of this book that could only have been written by 20-something Brit (or, conversely, only by 18-year-old Brit)?
I think the Nadia and Aubrey scenes were important to write when I was younger because there’s nothing like the passion of friendship when you’re in high school. The Nadia and Luke or Aubrey and Luke scenes benefited from me growing a little older. Heartbreak and romantic disappointment were just abstract ideas to me when I was 18; they became much realer once I had lived a little longer.

What’s one major difference in the version of The Mothers that readers will experience today versus those early drafts? 
The novel changed a ton over time. One major difference is that originally, Aubrey was the main character. Nadia was a minor character, hovering in the background with a big secret that would affect the church. Eventually, though, I realized that Nadia’s secret interested me more and beyond that, her secret was the engine driving the entire story forward.

Are there any aspects or elements that remained constant over the years?
The element that surprised me with its consistency is the opening line. I recently found a draft from 2009 and was stunned to realize that even back then, the opening sentence was the same.

"Heartbreak and romantic disappointment were just abstract ideas to me when I was 18; they became much realer once I had lived a little longer."

One of the things that can be the most striking when we revisit a book is that our sympathies for and alliances with the characters can shift. Did you find while writing this book that your sympathy migrated to and from different characters or that you identified more or less with certain characters? 
As I grew older, my sympathies expanded beyond the characters who are easily likable. Originally, I conceived of Mrs. Sheppard, the pastor’s wife, as a villain, but I challenged myself to write sections from her point of view and consider how her past motivates her actions. Luke, also, was an easy character to dismiss at first. He’s incredibly frustrating, but again, I wanted to explore the nuance of his character and try to provide him with a rich interior life. The toughest character to get on the page, though, has always been Nadia. She’s naturally guarded, so her inclination is to push you away and keep you out. It was tough to get close to her.

The Mothers features a cast of richly drawn and multidimensional characters, but we spend the most time with Nadia, watching her grow from a wounded girl into a complex and complicated young woman. What do you love most about her?
She does what she wants to do. I’ve also been cautious, so I admire Nadia’s willfulness, even when it borders on impulsiveness. She’s daring, in a way I often hesitate to be.

One of the most impressive things about this book is its strong and clear point of view. Certainly the omniscient church mothers who act as a Greek chorus and narrate and comment on portions of the novel are one of the biggest contributing factors to that. Can you tell us a bit about how that particular element of the book came to be?
I originally wrote the book in a gossipy, omniscient third person voice, but toward the end of revising, I wondered what would happen if I located that voice in an actual character. The church mothers were the obvious choice. They had already been hovering around the story, watching and observing and commenting, so I began to play around with the idea of their collective voice narrating the story.

Angela Flournoy, author of The Turner House, has said that any book featuring people that is set in the United States is a book that is ultimately about race. To what extent do you agree with this sentiment and see it reflected in The Mothers?
I think Angela’s point is that it’s ridiculous to think that the only books about race are books about people of color. We all live in raced bodies, so we all have racialized experiences and perceptions and opinions. Whiteness is still a racialized experience, so a book that, for example, only contains white characters is still engaging with race. That being said, I think The Mothers engages with race but without foregrounding racism. The characters’ experiences and perceptions and expectations are inflected by race, but racism isn’t their biggest conflict. I resent the idea that black lives only have meaning if they are presented in conflict against white racism. I was more interested in exploring a black community made up of complicated people living complicated lives shaped by race but not solely defined by racism.

"I resent the idea that black lives only have meaning if they are presented in conflict against white racism. I was more interested in exploring a black community made up of complicated people living complicated lives shaped by race but not solely defined by racism."

It sometimes feels like there are few genuine taboos remaining in modern American society, but abortion still remains hugely controversial if not outright scandalous; it’s still incredibly rare for it to be discussed and explored in fiction, film or television. Why do you think that is? 
I think the political debate over abortion surrounds some pretty huge questions. When does life begin? How much autonomy does a woman have over her body? Does the right to life supersede the right to control what happens inside your own body? These are huge, complicated, emotional questions that often trigger larger debates about sexuality, morality, religion and politics. Any one of those issues might make people uncomfortable; conversations about abortion often invoke all of them.

Politics aside, I think abortion is also rare in narratives because it can be difficult to write. It doesn’t generate story as naturally as a pregnancy might. If you write a pregnant character, for example, you can write the various stages of the pregnancy, the birth, the relationship with the baby, etc. With an abortion, there is no obvious next step, so it requires more work from the writer than writing a pregnancy might.

Have you encountered any resistance to the book (either before its publishing or since) because one of the characters elects to terminate a pregnancy?
So far, I surprisingly haven’t encountered much resistance about the abortion within the novel. I think it helps that the novel doesn’t try to convince the reader to feel one way or another about abortion. I’m not interested in making a political argument. Abortion is complicated, and I wanted to explore how these characters would experience that complexity.

Since you started writing at a young age, you must have been a voracious reader as well. Was there a particular book that inspired you to want to write one of your own? 
In elementary or middle school, a teacher gave me a copy of The Outsiders, which I loved. I was also inspired by the fact that S.E. Hinton published the book when she was 18, and I took that as a personal challenge to see if I too could write a novel while I was still a teenager.

"I was inspired by the fact that S.E. Hinton published ['The Outsiders'] when she was 18 and I took that as a personal challenge to see if I too could write a novel while I was still a teenager."

Like your protagonist, you also grew up in Southern California before moving to attend the University of Michigan. What was your favorite (and least favorite) thing about living in the Midwest? About California?
My favorite thing about Ann Arbor was the community I found there. I’d never had writer friends until I pursued an MFA, and my friends were so vital in keeping me sane through three very cold winters. When I was in Michigan, I missed the year-round sunshine of California. I could weather the cold, but the gray skies depressed me. Now that I’m living in Los Angeles, I do miss the seasons in Ann Arbor. Winter suffering aside, there was nothing like that happiness I felt on the first spring day.

While you were pursuing your MFA and working on this novel, you spent some time teaching undergraduate courses, including Introduction to Creative Writing. What was your favorite writing exercise to assign and what was the best piece of writing advice you have given your students (or that someone gave you)?
My favorite writing exercise to assign was for my students to craft a character based on someone they’d Facebook-stalked. It was a fun way to engage the voyeuristic curiosity we all feel online and to challenge them to turn a few observed details into a fully fleshed-out character. The best advice I received is from an MFA professor who encouraged us to always begin with a question in mind. I think about this in my nonfiction as well as my fiction. The work becomes more interesting and open if you begin with a question, rather than an argument or a claim.

What are you working on next?
A new novel set in the South about a pair of sisters who get separated. 

Canadian writer Stephenie Harrison lives in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. She blogs about the expat life at 20 Years Hence.

(Author photo by Emma Trim.)

RELATED CONTENT: Read our review of The Mothers.

Our October Top Pick in Fiction is Brit Bennett's The Mothers, an elegant and insightful coming of-age story set in Southern California. We asked the 26-year-old Bennett, who has just been named one of the National Book Award Foundation's "5 under 35," a few questions about her engrossing debut.

Interview by

Katherine Arden conjures the spirit—and spirits—of medieval Russia in The Bear and the Nightingale, her enchanting fantasy debut. Motherless Vasya Petrovna grows up unfettered on her father’s rural estate, but once she reaches womanhood, she discovers that she has inherited the magical abilities that run through her mother’s line. As the uneasy balance between traditional pagan beliefs and the newly embraced Christianity wavers, Vasya finds herself on the front lines of a struggle to ensure the survival of her village.

Arden, who studied Russian language and literature, talked to us about the inspiration for her remarkable first novel, the harsh beauty of Russia’s winters and why she prefers the fairy tales of Pushkin to those of Perrault.

When did you know you wanted to be a writer?
I read nonstop as a child, as most writers probably did, and my favorite part of the day was bedtime, because I would lie awake in the dark and make up stories. When I was in high school I wrote a fantasy novel with shapeshifting dragons and a sort-of-like-Iceland world of snow and volcanoes.

But I never seriously thought I am a writer or even I want to be a writer. Not the kind who writes books you find in a bookstore. I hadn’t made the connection between what I did in my own head for fun and the work of others that I read.

In college I didn’t do any creative writing at all. I studied foreign languages, wrote earnest essays and wanted to be a diplomat. But after I got my degree, I realized I was burnt out and I didn’t want to race into a career right away. So I moved to Hawaii to work on a farm. It was supposed to just be for a few months while I gathered steam and figured my life out. But I got bored on the farm, and as a remedy against boredom I decided to write a book.

I discovered that really enjoyed the writing process. I started thinking, well, I could do this with my life. Might as well try.  So I promised myself that I would finish my novel and at least try to get it published. Getting a book published is hard, and it took a lot of work to get there and there were setbacks along the way. But I just found myself getting more and more determined as the process went on.

I would say there was no moment that definitively told me I wanted to be a writer, rather a series of decisions and outcomes and realizations that cumulatively made me realize that was what I wanted to do with my life.

You weave in so many creatures from Russian folklore—a few of which are unique to the culture (I’d never heard of a domovoi!). How did you research these legends?
I took a course in college as part of my Russian degree, ambitiously titled “The Russian Mind.” This class started us off in Slavic prehistory and took us through more than a thousand years’ worth of events, ideas, and pieces of literature that shaped the thinking and the culture of the Russia we know today.

Early in the class, we studied Slavic folklore, including household spirits like the domovoi. We also examined the notion that Slavic paganism never really disappeared from the Russian countryside after the arrival of Christianity; rather they coexisted, with some friction, for centuries. I was fascinated by the tensions inherent in such a system, as well as the notion of a complicated magical world interacting so subtly with the real one. I decided that I wanted to explore these notions in the context of a novel. I did my research, as one does, in libraries and online. I have also amassed a small library of obscure academic texts on such topics as medieval Russian sexual mores, magical practices and farming implements.

"Slavic paganism never really disappeared from the Russian countryside after the arrival of Christianity; rather they coexisted, with some friction, for centuries. I was fascinated by the tensions inherent in such a system."

Were there any creatures you wish you had been able to include?
Wow, there are so many characters from folklore that I wanted to include but couldn’t! Some of them will make an appearance in future novels. There is a guardian spirit for everything in Russian folklore. The domovoi guards the house; the dvorovoi guards the dooryard. The bannik guards the bathhouse, the Ovinnik, the threshing-house. Their areas of influence are almost absurdly specific. And each creature has a certain appearance and personality, and people must do certain things to placate them.

Do you see big differences between Russian folklore and that of Western Europe?
Yes, there are marked differences between Western European and Russian fairy tales. To me the most interesting difference is between the recurring main characters of these two fairy-tale traditions. For example, the classic hero of Russian fairy tales is Ivan the Fool. He is not a muscular and martial figure like the heroic kings, princes and woodcutters that feature in Western European fairy tales. Rather, he is usually of ordinary birth, lazy and good-natured, and he gets by on his wits and native innocence.

For me, the heroines in Russian fairy tales absolutely outshine their Western counterparts, in terms of initiative, courage and interesting storylines. Vasilisa the Beautiful, for example, defeats the Baba Yaga with her cleverness and the help of her mother’s blessing. Marya Morevna is a warrior queen. Even Baba Yaga, the prototypical villain, is a powerful woman, who is sometimes wicked but always wise. For that reason, especially, I prefer the fairy tales of Pushkin or Afanasyev to those of say, Perrault, which value passivity in girls (Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc).

"The heroines in Russian fairy tales absolutely outshine their Western counterparts, in terms of initiative, courage and interesting storylines."

Vasya is a truly compelling heroine. She is strong enough to embrace her differences, but she still reads as a woman of her time. How did you maintain that balance?
How does any writer maintain balance? Scene by scene and moment by moment. I brought my own modern biases, and understandings to this historical period that I was trying to write about, but also allowed my ideas and beliefs to be shaped by my best guesses about the attitudes of the time. There was a constant friction between what I wanted my main character to do, and what I believed she would be able to do, given the era, and I hope some of the tension made its way into the storytelling.

As is often the case in fairy tales, the introduction of a stepmother brings conflict to the Petrovich family. Yet the reader ends up having a great amount of sympathy for Anna. How do you feel about this character?
Anna was one of the first characters that really came into focus for me, and it is often really interesting to get readers’ reactions on her. Some people feel sympathy for her, some hate her wholeheartedly. I personally fall into the former category. I think she is a person wholly trapped in a world that allows her no choices, and she is not a strong enough person to carve out happiness for herself in those circumstances.

“What makes the evil stepmother evil?” is perhaps an old or cliched question, but it was one I felt was important to ask and to answer, to give the story depth.

The Russian wilderness—and the Russian winters in particular—are vividly described in your novel. Can you talk a bit about that and how it affects your characters?
People living in the middle ages, in an environment as harsh as Northern Russia, were intimately acquainted with the weather. Their lives literally depended on it. In The Bear and the Nightingale, the weather is pretty much a character in and of itself, personified, in a way, by the various spirits that populate the novel. Every action and event in the book is some way tied to the land: heat, bitter cold, snowstorms, fires.

Also, I think my personal experiences of Russia (I lived in Moscow for a gap year after high school, and again my junior year of college) come through most in my descriptions of weather. The Russian weather has a quick and capricious quality that really captivated me, and the sky seems HUGE. If the natural world has a powerful presence even in modern Moscow, can you imagine what it was like for people living in the wilderness in the 14th century?

"If the natural world has a powerful presence even in modern Moscow, can you imagine what it was like for people living in the wilderness in the 14th century?"

Even though her family sometimes has a hard time understanding Vasya, there is so much love and loyalty in their relationships. What was your favorite relationship in the novel?
I really love the relationship Vasya has with her older brother Sasha and her younger brother Alyosha. I have a brother, and so those relationships were the easiest for me to write. I wanted their mutual affection to be a powerful driving force, even though they don’t always understand, or agree with, each other. I think that is how families function in the best sense, where love and loyalty wins out, even though no one is perfect.

The conflict between Christianity and the old traditions is a big part of this book. What do readers need to know about this period in Russian history?
I think it’s important to realize that this period of Russian history doesn’t have a lot of primary sources. Literacy was extremely low, and the few literate people lived in cities and were mostly clergy, concerned with copying Greek religious texts. Everything was built of wood, so architectural evidence is limited as well. It gives lovely scope to a writer, because you can do your research, align all your facts, step back and say, well, how do we know this didn’t happen?

But what we do know: at this time period (mid 14th century) Muscovy was rising rapidly, buoyed by a long collaboration with the Golden Horde, which had taken power in Russia about 200 years prior. At the time, the Horde was preoccupied by succession problems (Genghis Khan had a really absurd number of descendants), and the Grand Princes of Moscow were quietly expanding their territory and bringing lesser princes into the fold.

During this period, much of Muscovy’s conflict was with other Russian city-states (notably Tver), but Dmitrii Ivanovich (who is still a boy in The Bear and the Nightingale) is the first prince who will successfully oppose the Golden Horde and Mongol dominance in Russia.

You’ve lived in so many places! Where are you now, and how long do you plan to stay there?
I’m live in Vermont just at present, where I promised myself I would stay and not budge until I’d finished my second novel! I’ve done that now, and so I am eyeing the horizon a bit. You never know. Norway next, maybe? Bali? My absolute favorite thing about being a writer is that you can live wherever you want.

We hear this is the first in a series. What can you tell us about Vasya’s next adventure?
Her next adventure, The Girl in the Tower, is written already. It covers a much shorter time frame than The Bear and the Nightingale (two months instead of 16 years) and it takes place largely in the medieval city of Moscow. It features Vasya and also her two older siblings, Sasha and Olga, who were only briefly in the first book, along with new characters from Russian history and Slavic mythology. Some you may recognize, some you probably won’t.

RELATED CONTENT: Read our review of The Bear and the Nightingale.

Author photo © Deverie Crystal Photography.

Katherine Arden conjures the spirit—and spirits—of medieval Russia in The Bear and the Nightingale, her enchanting fantasy debut.

Interview by

New Yorker writer Elif Batuman puts an absurdist twist on the campus novel in a smart, funny and fresh fiction debut, which follows an endearingly awkward 18-year-old through her first year at Harvard and a summer studying abroad. As Selin makes friends, follows her academic calling and pursues her first crush via email in the pre-smartphone era of 1995, readers will be charmed by her vivid observations, unique voice and vulnerable heart. We asked Batuman a few questions about her somewhat autobiographical first novel.

Your first book was a collection of essays on Russian literature, and also took its title from Dostoyevsky. What appeals to you about Russian writers and how did that influence The Idiot?
Yes, my first book was a collection of interconnected comic essays about Russian literature called The Possessed. Later, I was trying to write a novel about someone like me, who had also written a collection of interconnected comic essays about Russian literature, only in her case, it was called The Idiot. I didn’t end up finishing that novel, but I got really attached to the idea of someone writing a somehow autobiographical book called The Idiot. Last year, I started revising an old novel I had abandoned some time ago, about the embarrassment of being young (and studying beginning Russian), and I realized The Idiot was the only possible title.

How is writing a novel different from writing nonfiction for you, from a process point of view (or is it)?
I know those are the two main categories in America today: Before you say anything else about a book, you have to say if it’s “fiction” or “nonfiction,” and everyone knows that novels are fiction, while memoirs and essays are nonfiction. For me, this particular division doesn’t feel natural or productive. I don’t consider fictionality to be a defining characteristic of the novel. In fact I think it’s not just wrong, but pointless and and tone-deaf to look at a group of texts that includes In Search of Lost Time and War and Peace, and say: “The great unifying feature of these texts is that the events they describe never happened.”

There wasn’t that much of a difference of process for me with writing The Idiot versus writing The Possessed. I did feel more free and comfortable writing The Idiot because I didn’t have to go on the record saying, “Every single thing that happened in this book is true.” In fact, I initially really wanted to write The Possessed as a novel, but was told that it could only be nonfiction, because nobody would ever read a whole novel that was just about a grad student studying Russian literature; the only possible way to get anyone to read a book about Russian literature grad school would be if it gave them the sense that they were actually also getting the educational bonus of learning something about Russian novels that they didn’t have time to read.

The assumption, to me weird and paradoxical, was that people would learn less about Russian novels from a novel about Russian novels, than from a nonfiction book about Russian novels. Still, maybe this assumption was right, because The Possessed made it onto the NYT bestseller list, which was a big surprise. Maybe that wouldn’t have happened if I had been able to play around with personal details and chronology and call it a novel, as I originally wanted.

As far as my own writing process goes, the biggest difference isn’t between fiction and nonfiction, but between reported and non-reported writing. I’ve been doing reported journalism for the New Yorker since 2006; this involves making recordings and taking notes and calling people on the phone and working with fact-checkers to make sure that there is some basic level of consensus between everyone mentioned in the story about the facts under discussion. In non-reported writing, I’m less interested in capturing objective truth than in communicating a subjective experience. That’s one reason I found it easier to write a “novel” than a “memoir”: I don’t want to have to vouch for the accuracy of what I’m saying, especially not about other people, and I’m not trying to make any objective truth claims, or change the historical record. I’m interested in getting a story that feels subjectively true to the reader, based on his or her experience of being alive.

"In non-reported writing, I’m less interested in capturing objective truth than in communicating a subjective experience."

Why did you set the novel in the mid-1990s? Do you think the college experience has changed significantly since?
Well, I went to college in the mid-1990s. I wanted to write about the feeling a lot of people had at that time, that history was over. The end of the Cold War (which seemed, when I was little, like an immutable part of the world) seemed like a sign or precursor of the total triumph of liberal democracy, of the end of racism and sexism and every kind of discrimination. Lots of people really thought that the rest of history was going to be a long staircase of technological improvement.

I do think the college experience has significantly changed since the 1990s. We had no cell phones or Wikipedia. Identity politics weren’t mainstream. Homosexuality was way less socially accepted. Acts and statements that we view as sexual harassment now, just were not considered harassment then; thinking too much about what was and wasn’t harassment (or rape) felt like being a time-wasting pedant, and a certain kind of ambitious young woman tended to internalize all kinds of slights in the name of open-mindedness, humanism, and the big picture, in a way that doesn’t happen so much anymore.

That said, I think there are many aspects of being 18 and leaving home for the first time that are very much the same now as they were in 1995, and will probably be the same in 2025, and weren’t all that different in 1845, which is why there have been and will continue to be so many novels about this time of life.

"I think there are many aspects of being 18 and leaving home for the first time that are very much the same now as they were in 1995, and will probably be the same in 2025, and weren’t all that different in 1845, which is why there have been and will continue to be so many novels about this time of life."

Is it safe to say that plot is a secondary concern in The Idiot? How did you think about plot while writing this book?
Well, in the first half of the book, plot actually was a concern—I thought a lot about pacing and momentum. In the second half, though, you’re right, plot was a secondary concern, or a non-concern, or really an anti-concern. One thing I wanted to get at in the second half of the book was the feeling of falling outside of plot. I think for all or many people there are times when one feels like a character in a book or movie, and everything that happens feels meaningful, picturesque, like it’s heading towards something; but it’s possible to lose that feeling, sometimes quite suddenly, and then for a time, sometimes quite a long time, life feels like just a list of occurrences or experiences with no order or meaning. Often that feeling of the loss of plot is attached to the loss of some person, who seems to have been the whole receptacle for that feeling. This loss can be devastating, especially for a young person. I wanted to communicate that devastating feeling, the feeling of free-fall, and the struggle to get back into plot again.

So much of this novel is about communicating with people and how hard it is. Selin knows two languages and is studying two more, but she still has difficulty expressing her feelings and communicating with others in a meaningful way. This is a struggle that all humans face—especially writers. How did you find your work and life experience informing this theme, or your decision to explore it?
You know, I really did study all those languages in college, and later I did a Ph.D. in comp lit, which took forever, and now I can read (and sort of speak) in seven languages—and it never really occurred to me, before you asked this question, that the motivation was rooted in the desire to communicate and to feel less alone. This now strikes me as pretty ironic, since many of the most alienating experiences in my life have involved trying to communicate in a foreign language.

Of course you’re right that literature comes from the struggle to communicate. Writers are often people who had lonely childhoods. When I was little, my parents worked really hard, I didn’t have siblings, and the rest of my family was in another country. Reading was what first made me realize that other people felt and experienced the same things that I did, things I thought nobody else knew about. It was the most wonderful feeling, a true gift. From an early age, the thing I most wanted was to become a writer and give that gift to other people.

When picking up a novel starring a college freshman, readers might expect drinking and sex. Not to spoil too much, but neither of these things figure significantly in The Idiot. Was that intentional?
Selin knows that drinking is supposed to be a big deal in college, and she can see that the other kids are obsessed with alcohol and how to get it. But personally, she’s just like: “How is it going to improve my actual life to be drunk right now.” She associates drinking with her parents, so it isn’t especially cool to her. That sense of inner feelings and personal history not matching up with social expectations or received stories is really basic to novels in general, and to the story I wanted to tell. It didn’t have to be drinking; but that was actually my own experience with alcohol in my first year of college, so that’s what I used to express that disjuncture. Or maybe it’s more accurate to say, that’s how I experienced and understood that disjuncture, so I just kept it that way in the book. Either way, I guess it’s both intentional and unintentional.

With sex, I guess I would say that sex is really important in The Idiot—it’s just that sometimes the important thing is people not ending up having sex. Sexual frustration is a famous engine for novelistic production—just look at Henry James.

Selin sees Ivan as more experienced and wise because he is older, but I had to wonder if he knew any more about the world than she did. How do you see that character? Is he a good guy?
I’m delighted and touched by this question. In a way it’s the point of the book. All the novel gives you is Selin’s subjective impressions, which you know don’t coincide 100% with objective reality (otherwise it wouldn’t be called The Idiot). So you’re right to question her judgment. It’s safe to assume that Ivan is less wise and more confused than he seems to Selin. After all, we know he seems old to her, but we also know he’s only 23.

Beyond that, though, I think the best answer to your question is in Proust, in the passage I used as the epigraph. It starts like this:

But the characteristic feature of the ridiculous age I was going through—awkward indeed but by no means infertile—is that we do not consult our intelligence and that the most trivial attributes of other people seem to us to form an inseparable part of their personality. In a world thronged with monsters and with gods, we know little peace of mind…

I vividly remember from my student years the feeling that “the most trivial attributes of other people” are actually fundamental aspects of their personality. Everything a professor/ authority figure/ love-object said seemed like a transparent reflection of that person’s fixed and unchanging policy, personality and intentions. By contrast, everything I said was provisional, cobbled together, in flux.

Gradually I came to realize that everyone experiences their subjectivity as being provisional and in flux, and that everyone assumes, at least at first, that other people are more coherent and fixed in their identities. However much we know that all people are human, we feel like “the world is thronged with monsters and with gods.” All other people seem to be either good or not good; all their actions seem to be adding up toward some intention or plan.

In other words: the fact that Ivan seems like both a god and a monster to Selin has more to do with her time of life than with what he’s really like.

I have to ask about the last line of the book! Selin is totally wrong, right? How do you feel about the ending?
You know, to answer this question I’m going to quote the rest of the epigraph from Proust:

There is hardly a single action we perform in that phase which we would not give anything, in later life, to be able to annul. Whereas what we ought to regret is that we no longer possess the spontaneity which made us perform them. In later life we look at things in a more practical way, in full conformity with the rest of society, but adolescence is the only period in which we learn anything.

So—yes, I think Selin is wrong, sort of; more accurately, she doesn’t see things the way she will later. At the end of The Idiot, things haven’t turned out in a way she expected, or wanted, or understood. She feels embarrassed, the way we all feel embarrassed about how things happened, about how we acted towards people and how people treated us in return, when we were in our teens. Later, I think that she will eventually realize how much she learned that year—maybe more than in any other period in her life.

In general, I think we don’t always recognize learning, because it feels more like losing something than like gaining something.

What are you working on next?
I’ve actually started working on another book about Selin. I’m also working on a book about Turkey.

 

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of The Idiot.

New Yorker writer Elif Batuman puts an absurdist twist on the traditional campus novel in a smart and original fiction debut.
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BookPageThis is a publisher-sponsored interview.


As England enters the fray of World War II, the women left behind in the small, sleepy village of Chilbury must adapt to their quickly changing world. Unwilling to let their church choir shutter after the men are drafted, the ladies of Chilbury take the reigns and transform the choir into a place of solace, strength and kinship. Written in a series of personal letters, Jennifer Ryan's debut novel, The Chilbury Ladies' Choir, follows a diverse cast of women characters as they navigate village life, love, friendship and dangerous family secrets. 

A native of England and a former book editor, Ryan now lives in the Washington, D.C. area. We asked her about the women who inspired her story, what we can learn from the women who lived through World War II and more.

On your website, you mention drawing inspiration for this novel from your grandmother—Party Granny. Can you tell us a little about her role and experiences during World War II?
At the beginning of World War II, Party Granny was a pretty, plump and jolly 20-year-old. Her life changed irrevocably as a result of the war, as it did for many young women of the time. She had been engaged to a young man who joined the army but decided to end their relationship because there was far more excitement for a young woman than there had ever been before the war.

"There was a general feeling that every day could be their last, making people drop their morals and enjoy life to the very fullest."

Dancing and parties became common, as people were urged to keep their spirits up, and there was a general feeling that every day could be their last, making people drop their morals and enjoy life to the very fullest. Soon she met and married a naval officer, Denis, who subsequently left in a submarine for a few years. He left her pregnant, which meant that she got extra food rations, including milk and eggs. She also didn’t have to work (by this time in the war, all women between the ages of 18 and 40 had to take on war work), although by the end of the war she was working as an administrator in a nearby factory.

She belonged to the local choir, which, like the Chilbury Ladies’ Choir, was women-only by default as all the men had left for war. Unlike Chilbury, it was a notoriously bad choir—or so she told us in her hilarious stories—and they sang off key for the entire war. On one occasion, a choir member had been injured in a bombing raid, and when Party Granny’s choir came to the hospital to cheer her up with a few songs, their singing was so hysterically dreadful that they were paraded through the entire hospital to cheer up every ward.

It was the parties that my grandmother remembers the most; putting on the radio and swinging each other around to some jazz tunes. At that point there didn’t need to be much excuse to roll up the rug and put on a gramophone record or two. It became so commonplace, even for a mother with a baby in a pram, that they all knew the most recent dances and would kick off their shoes in a flash every time the trumpets and saxophones of "In the Mood" were heard.

Aside from piecing together your grandmother’s stories, what kind of research did you conduct for this novel?
The best part of my research was talking to old ladies about their memories of the war. Their eyes would light up when I asked them questions, and if there were more than one—I was often in an old people’s community—they’d all start talking on top of each other. They’d tell me about the dances, the affairs, the unwanted pregnancies, the gossip, the American boys, and then they’d remember the bombs and how they all pulled together, making cups of tea and singing—there was always a lot of singing and dancing.

"Shockingly, most of them told me that the war was the best time of their lives. This was because of the camaraderie and the fun, the relaxed attitudes and the new jobs."

We’d invariably end up having a few choruses of popular songs from the day, "Roll Out the Barrel" and "It’s a Long Way to Tipperary." One old lady, who must have been over 90, insisted on showing me how to do the dance to "Knees Up, Mother Brown," and I clasped her elbow hoping she’d be okay as she got up out of her wheelchair and began kicking her legs in the air. Shockingly, most of them told me that the war was the best time of their lives. This was because of the camaraderie and the fun, the relaxed attitudes and the new jobs. One of them became an engineer and designed plane parts and another became a senior nurse and then was sent to study medicine, which was very unusual for a woman in those days. They told me that they had more control over their lives, that the men had gone and they could do a better job without them, thank you very much.

Of course, the war wasn’t all fun, and there were plenty of horrific, sad stories of people losing loved ones. I remember tears coming to the eyes of one lady as she told me that she lost both her sons, and that she was left with no children, no family. There are also a great many memoirs, diaries and letters from the era which make for very interesting reads. World War II has been fascinating to me since my childhood, and I had already read a great many of these books before I even thought about writing a novel, although it gave me the perfect excuse to read them all over again.

Did you always envision The Chilbury Ladies’ Choir as an epistolary novel, or did you naturally gravitate to the form during your writing process?
I wanted to write the novel in the women’s own voices, both in letters and journal entries, so that the reader could really get into their minds. The speech patterns of the era, as well as the mindset, could be conveyed better, I felt, through this medium. I wanted the reader to be fully immersed in the era and characters.

Having read so many gripping and fascinating first-hand accounts of the war in books of letters and journals, it made me realize how well this form would work. I almost felt that it would be missing a step if I didn’t write it in the way I had encountered the personalities behind my research materials. There is something terrifically raw about a journal or diary that provides a true insight into a person’s fears and dreams, and I especially wanted to use that to augment the interior thoughts of the protagonists.

How closely does the village of Chilbury mirror your native Kent?
When I was growing up in the '70s, the war didn’t feel that long ago, and people would often speak about it, remembering stories or memories. Many adults had been evacuated as children to different parts of the country, including many of my family members. Food rationing continued well into the 1950's, as well as the shortages, and everyone seemed very OCD about using teabags twice and not wasting food under any circumstances. One of my great aunts contested that broken biscuits were better for you than the ones that had made it intact.

There was also a sense that the country was broke. We’d done all we could and won the war, but we lost everything else in doing so. There were still bomb sites in London and in some towns in Kent, too. It wasn’t uncommon to see a house bombed out of a terraced row, making it look like a knocked-out tooth. Air raid shelters were still around, especially the big triangular concrete ones in public parks. A friend of my sister's once eased open the old wooden door to one; we all peered down the dark, spidery concrete stairs then ran away screaming.

Although the countryside remains the same as always—the run of hills called the Downs are in the right place—the world is a different place now. It was an interesting and special time, as the end of Britain’s colonial era was nigh, and with it the waning power of the aristocracy and the traditional class system. There were the vestiges of an age almost already past, and the cusp of a new order, which enabled the Chilbury ladies to challenge the status quo and forge a new world for themselves.

What inspires you the most about the women in this story?
When I was researching the war, I began to come across a similar theme: individual women—previously living relatively insular lives, often with a man around to tell them what to do—joined women’s groups. Through work, choirs, the Sewing Bees, the Women’s Voluntary Service or through having women evacuees and billets—these were the catalysts for them to change their lives for the better. Part of their impetus came from a sense that they were not alone, that the group was behind them.

A World War II diarist, Nella Last, joined the Women’s Voluntary Service and slowly began to stand up to her domineering husband. At the start of the war, she was getting over a nervous breakdown. He wouldn’t let her socialize without him, and since he was a quiet, unsocial man, this meant that she had few opportunities for friends. The war changed all that, and soon she was managing a mobile canteen for the troops or bomb raid victims. Her health improved dramatically, and by the end of the war she had even stopped coming home to make her husband’s lunch every day. He wasn’t happy at all, but she was determined never to allow him, or any man, tell her what to do ever again.

Women became more open with each other, and sharing stories of their own lives shed light on some of the atrocities that were happening behind the closed doors of marital and family homes. Domestic violence and child abuse became a lot more visible, and with many of the men away, far easier to shame out of existence. The evacuation of children also made it easy to see how other people lived their lives. Some weren’t happy with how theirs looked from the other side. The other way in which the women’s groups helped was that they made the war a shared experience. One woman’s pain or heartache became their problem too, and I tried to capture this in The Chilbury Ladies’ Choir. A few of the women suffer losses of loved ones, and the choir embraces them, telling them that they are all part of a new family of friends. This gave the women a tremendous strength and resilience in a time of horrific loss.

What lessons can we learn today from the bold women of this period?
Today, we face some of the same challenges as they did in those times, universal themes that continue to affect women everywhere. The first, and probably the most important, is that we are still in a world created and organized decades and centuries ago by men. It is never too late to challenge the way things are done, as the women do in Chilbury. Small steps and seizing opportunities to gain control of aspects of our lives, such as work and family responsibilities, all make a difference. We need to make the world more geared toward our needs and wants, rather than it being molded to an old-fashioned world of yesterday. For me, it was important that the Chilbury ladies first took on the choir for themselves, but then changed it to meet their own purposes. They made the entire choir work better for them, moving away from the traditional role of a choir and directing their aims toward a choir that helps them and other women.

I think this what I’d like readers to take away from Chilbury, that it’s up to us to take control of our world, create a new way of seeing old ways of doing things, and rejuvenate them for our own uses. We, too, need to question the status quo and find ways that will better suit our purpose.

We have to ask: are you an avid singer? What’s your favorite hymn or piece of choral music?
Yes, I am an incredibly avid singer! I belonged to my school choir (which was terribly serious) and then a few different adult choirs. I simply loved choir practice: creeping into a cold church at night, greeting my fellow choir members with a joke or two, singing and hearing our beautiful voices blend together to create such a majestic sound. Since I wrote Chilbury, I’ve come to learn that all kinds of chemical reactions happen when we sing with other people, which is part of the great bonding experience that it becomes. And then there’s the music, which affects our emotions in such a profound way.

My favorite choral work is Mozart’s "Requiem." What a phenomenal, intense, moving piece of music! Mozart was writing it as he was dying, and it brings the whole of humanity, death and spirituality together in an incredibly big and moving way. It was as if he was truly putting his all into it. It was the very last piece of music that he wrote—indeed, he didn’t quite finish it—and, tragically, it became the "Requiem" for his own funeral.

As England enters the fray of World War II, the women left behind in the small, sleepy village of Chilbury must adapt to their quickly changing world. Unwilling to let their church choir shutter after the men are drafted, the ladies of Chilbury take the reigns and transform the choir into a place of solace, strength and kinship. Written in a series of personal letters, Jennifer Ryan's debut novel, The Chilbury Ladies' Choir, follows a diverse cast of women characters as they navigate village life, love, friendship and dangerous family secrets. 

Interview by

First-time novelist Stephanie Powell Watts prefers to write outside her home in a place where there’s some noise—somewhere like a grocery store or a coffee shop.

A grocery store?! Watts laughs. “I don’t like to be isolated,” she says during a call to her home near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Watts has been teaching creative writing and African-American literature at Lehigh University since 2004. She and her husband, the poet Bob Watts, are the creative writing department at Lehigh, she notes. They have a 7-year-old son. Watts adds that she wrote most of her wonderful novel, No One Is ­Coming to Save Us, in the coffee house on campus.

“I had four younger brothers in my house,” she says, explaining her need for noise. “There was always noise and there were always people running in and out, so you had to carve out your own space. And we had a very small house. Maybe I’m referring back to that. I really, really like a sense of connection.”

Watts grew up in Lenoir, North Carolina, a small town “right at the base of the Smoky and Brushy mountains,” where as a child 30 years ago, there was a vibrant furniture-making industry. The town has now fallen on hard times. “It’s empty parking lots. People have nothing to do. It’s a beautiful area, but the town used to be bustling and kind of grimy. Now there’s no bustle.”

Watts draws brilliantly on her personal experiences of those changes to create her fictional town of Pinewood. The place has an exhausted, ghostly feel that underlies the nostalgia, tumult and strife in the lives of her characters, who are mostly African Americans.

Watts drew similarly on her experiences in this part of North Carolina in creating her highly regarded short story collection, We Are Taking Only What We Need. The book earned Watts a Whiting Award, which comes with a $50,000 prize, and individual stories in the collection won additional awards. That’s one reason her first novel has deservedly earned a lot of early attention.

Another is that one of the surprising influences on the novel is F. Scott Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby.

“Once I realized that this was a story about displacement and identity, particularly racial identity,” Watts says, “I started to wonder how I could embody that. And I began thinking how Gatsby appears to be about one thing, but is really about many other things. That had generative force for me.”

But influence did not lead to imitation. In Watt’s telling, Jay (JJ) Ferguson, who left Pinewood as a very, very poor man, returns after 17 years as a rich man and begins building a house on a hill overlooking the town, where in the past only wealthy white people could live. Like Jay Gatsby, his intention is to woo and win a married woman he has long been in love with. The object of JJ’s obsession is Ava Bailey.

And here the shape, texture and even the diction of the two novels diverge widely. “When I read Gatsby and thought about [the women characters] Daisy and Myrtle, I thought, oh my gosh, they should have some say here. We never see them as anything other than materialistic and flighty people. Their stories seemed potentially fascinating.”

The emotional heart of Watts’ novel actually lies in the vexed relationships between Ava and her mother, Sylvia, and between each of these women and their detached and wandering husbands. Sylvia is so saddened by the absence of her son that she begins a phone relationship with a desperate young man in the county jail who randomly called her. She also feels free to intrude upon her daughter’s life while maintaining a complicated distance from her husband. Ava, nearing 40, is a manager at the local bank and wants fiercely to have a baby. Her husband, Henry, a casualty of the collapse of the furniture manufacturing business, seems aimless.

“One of the things I wanted to write about was difficult mothers and daughters. But I wanted to write about loving difficult mothers and daughters,” Watts says of Sylvia and Ava. The men, she admits, “are not on their best behavior. These men have access to a kind of power, and it’s sexual power, and they take it. But I hope they are rounded enough and that I’ve shown their lives in other lights.”

One way Watts leads the reader to feel empathy toward her characters, even though we may not always like them, is through an inspired shifting and intermingling of points of view. Another is the humor in the book, both in her own narration and in the exchanges among her characters. “Humor is absolutely necessary to keep going,” she says. “So many of the people in my family and my community were wonderful storytellers. They would tell stories about just awful things that happened to them. But their humor made what happened into their own kind of triumph.”

The novel, Watts says, “absolutely has the particularity of African-American experience. But I feel strongly that this kind of experience is not so different from other people’s experiences. This is about a particular time and place, but I think there are so many other resonances here to other kinds of experiences. And that to me is the beauty of reading. As a reader, you know the gut of it and say, ‘I get this,’ and I’ve felt like that, too.”

In the end, these characters achieve a kind of peace with one another, a place where Watts says, “I could see them having a future, a difficult one, but a future.”

She adds, “There are mercies that we get all the time, if we can see them as that. That doesn’t necessarily mean change and it doesn’t necessarily mean forgiveness. But we can decide that this [harm done to us] is not going to destroy me or lead me to destroy you. I think my characters are on that road.”

 

This article was originally published in the April 2017 issue of BookPage. Download the entire issue for the Kindle or Nook.

Author photo by Doug Benedict.

First-time novelist Stephanie Powell Watts prefers to write outside her home in a place where there’s some noise—somewhere like a grocery store or a coffee shop. A grocery store?! Watts laughs. “I don’t like to be isolated,” she says during a call to her home near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Interview by

In Janet Benton’s fictional debut, Lilli de Jong, a young woman finds herself pregnant and alone in 19th-century Philadelphia. Lilli’s decision to keep her baby leads her to a charity for unwed mothers, a job as a wet nurse and, briefly but most alarmingly, the perilous urban streets. A historical saga and a romance, Lilli de Jong is both a scathing indictment of societal biases and a testament to the redemptive strength of a mother’s love. With the same grace and thoughtfulness displayed in her novel, Benton answers questions about women’s reproductive rights, then and now, the Quaker faith and the power of motherhood.

You have worked as an editor and a writer of nonfiction for several decades. What about this subject made you want to explore it in fictional form?
I’ve written fiction since I was very young, and I have an MFA in fiction writing. But Lilli de Jong is the first novel I’ve finished. The voice I heard from the beginning was that of Lilli telling her story. I didn’t choose how to explore the story; it never struck me as a subject area, but rather as an embodied and urgent tale. I hear a voice for nonfiction, too, but it’s my voice—that of a person with a body and a history that are already established. When writing in a fictional voice, there’s a sense of being an actor—of taking on a role, trying on a new position in life, a new time and place and set of concerns. I loved doing that with Lilli. She was such an interesting person to inhabit, and I cared deeply for her and her baby, Charlotte.

I also loved pretending to live in Philadelphia in the 1880s, which is not so hard to do, since the city is a living history museum. I feel a thrill when I see places Lilli goes in the book. Driving on Broad Street in downtown Philadelphia, which is lined with tall, old edifices, I’m moved to see the grand City Hall looming ahead, partly because Lilli and Charlotte spent a lot of time nearby while City Hall was being built. As I move through the city, I recall scenes from the novel, imagining the two of them traveling the same streets. It’s a strange, thrilling sensation.

What kinds of historical resources did you use? How did the research shape the narrative?
Oh, many kinds. Some favorites were from the 19th century: records from an institution that sheltered unwed mothers, a pamphlet on the care and feeding of babies, newspaper articles (which were written in a very dramatic style then), travel guides, doctors’ accounts of life at Blockley Almshouse, a guide to doing charity work with the poor, accounts of underpaid working women, home health-care manuals (most health care took place in the home, and detailed guides were written for mothers) and so much else. I was also inspired by countless books, including Janet Golden’s A Social History of Wet Nursing in America, Ann Fessler’s The Girls Who Went Away, Howard Brinton’s Quaker Journals. The research and the narrative shaped each other.

What wonderful historical tidbit did you have to leave out?
I don’t know if it qualifies as wonderful, but in one scene, Lilli takes refuge in a park. As I was writing that diary entry set in June 1883, I decided that Lilli would pick up a newspaper and encounter some actual news of the time. I did an online search. An article came up from a New Zealand newspaper about stories reported in The World, a Philadelphia paper. Called “Horrible Disclosures at Philadelphia,” the article told of a man who’d performed abortions, which were illegal and thus done in dangerous circumstances, who’d been arrested when his wife charged him with brutal assault. Neighbors said that many women went into his house and never left. Found in his Philadelphia home were “the bodies of several children, and a large number of adult human bodies.” Skulls were found in the cellar, and there were vicious, lustrous-coated dogs living down there. The man’s accomplice reported that some bodies were cremated in the stove on which the family’s meals were prepared; others were likely fed to the dogs.

On reading this, Lilli feels a great kinship with the murdered women. If she had sought to end her pregnancy, she might have gone to this man. I wrote the scene and kept it a while, but I knew it knocked the story in too gruesome a direction. I didn’t need to go to such extremes in order to create a portrait of meaningful suffering.

Lilli is a woman of great faith. How did her being Quaker shape her experience?
I think her faith enables her to do as she does, and here’s why. The founding principle of the Society of Friends is that God sends guidance directly to those who are open and willing. The Quaker practice of silent worship is meant to allow one to perceive this voice. This is likely one reason that Quakers have a long tradition of defying injustices, including slavery and war; the practice of listening to one’s inner voice can create a sense of rightness and the bravery to act. So Lilli’s faith tradition helps her to act as she does. It was important to me, too, that Lilli wouldn’t accept society’s view of her—that she wouldn’t consider herself a sinner and be ashamed. This tired view supports prejudice, and she needs self-respect to act with strength. So what religious background might have given an unwed mother the ability to decide for herself about her own experience? All religions, clearly, can foster courageous people and rebels. But in Philadelphia in the 1880s, I thought most likely she would be a Quaker. Her family and community wouldn’t have seen her as virtuous, but Lilli fights for what she believes is right, regardless of what others say. She was, in fact, raised by her Quaker mother and elders to do just that. Yet she has to stay away from her family and community in order to live as she does. I see Lilli and her companions, by the end of the book, as living on the brink of modernity. They find their places in a society that’s changing fast due to industrial growth, immigration, greater ease of travel, etcetera. There’s room for people like them there.

“This is likely one reason that Quakers have a long tradition of defying injustices, including slavery and war; the practice of listening to one’s inner voice can create a sense of rightness and the bravery to act.”

I read Lilli de Jong the week my oldest turned 21 and was reminded of the tremendously physical work of nursing and caring for an infant. Some things really haven’t changed much. How did your own experience as a mother inform the novel?
I drew on my experience a lot for these aspects of the novel. Like Lilli, I nursed my daughter most of the day and night at first, and I barely slept. Like Charlotte, my daughter was highly alert at birth and developed quickly. I wrote in a diary about my daughter and used bits from that to describe Charlotte. Like Charlotte, my daughter smiled at first feeling the wind. I adored the dearness of her face as she nursed. She was and is unutterably dear to me. But the big picture was wholly different. I was and am married, my baby was not going hungry, I didn’t grow up as Lilli did, my mother is alive and well, and so on.

I’m glad you were reminded of the physical work of mothering. I aimed for readers to feel those things up close.

You are a writing mentor—what exactly does that entail?
I work privately with people who are writing books, usually novels or memoirs. At intervals of their choosing, I read, comment on and discuss their pages, sharing what I’ve learned through decades of working as a writer, editor and teacher in many professional settings. My aim is to help them craft powerful stories. It’s a very effective way to work.

You wrote this at a time when women’s reproductive health was once again making headlines, as was the value of women’s work outside the home. Within this climate, what does this book mean to you, and what do you hope readers will take away?
It’s hard to recall a time when women’s reproductive lives didn’t make headlines and women’s work inside and outside the home wasn’t contested, isn’t it? The same was true in Lilli’s day; the Harper’s article that Clementina talks about with Albert, in which a man describes the proper education of women (very little), was common to the time. At least now, in the United States, we can take for granted that girls go to school, women vote, and married women own property and keep their wages.

Lilli’s story, I hope, has the power of fiction. Fiction, by being concrete and affecting the senses, can break down barriers and generate compassion. I hope readers will take away a felt experience of mothering under duress. I hope they’ll understand more about the difficult, irreplaceable work of mothers. I hope they’ll care more about children, who need loving care. Beyond this, I’ll leave the reader alone and state my own views: that most mothers in the world must struggle far too hard to provide for their children, and that this country needs to create policies and paid-leave programs that support the fundamental, future-building work of parenting.

Lilli de Jong is about tenacity and the tremendous bond between parent and child, but there are times when the going gets pretty rough. What did you do to keep your spirits up as you were writing?
I might have watered the garden, walked, talked on the phone, made a cup of something hot—but mostly I plowed through. I didn’t have time to hesitate. I did cry, while writing the first several drafts especially. I needed to immerse myself in what I was putting Lilli and Charlotte through, to raise up my own feelings, in order to write a genuine account. Over time, the work became more a matter of paring and puttering to achieve effects, rather than taking on the story’s full weight. Still, every time I edited it, I aimed to listen carefully to Lilli’s voice on the page and to concentrate deeply, so I wouldn’t damage it. I hope I haven’t damaged it. I’m an endless editor. The only reason it’s done is because it has to be.

What are you working on next?
I have three novels at various stages of development. I look forward to the moment when one of them refuses to let me go!

 

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of Lilli de Jong.

Author photo credit Steve Ladner.

In Janet Benton’s fictional debut, Lilli de Jong, a young woman finds herself pregnant and alone in 19th-century Philadelphia. Lilli’s decision to keep her baby leads her to a charity for unwed mothers, a job as a wet nurse and, briefly but most alarmingly, the perilous urban streets. A historical saga and a romance, Lilli de Jong is both a scathing indictment of societal biases and a testament to the redemptive strength of a mother’s love. With the same grace and thoughtfulness displayed in her novel, Benton answers questions about women’s reproductive rights, then and now, the Quaker faith and the power of motherhood.

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Rachel Khong makes her fiction debut with the small-but-mighty Goodbye, Vitamin, the story of 30-year-old Ruth, who moves home to help care for her aging father, Howard, who was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. In poignant and often hilarious journal-like entries, Ruth charts the joys and sadness of her days at home and ultimately her journey through grief.

Khong, the former executive editor of Lucky Peach magazine and the author of All About Eggs: Everything We Know About the World’s Most Important Food, makes us laugh once again as she shares the secret behind her first novel’s diary style and shakes her fist at memory.

How much of this story is drawn from your own life experiences?
My father doesn’t have Alzheimer’s, I’ve never had a fiancé break up with me, and I’ve never spent a year at home being a caretaker. But I do know about career-related ambivalence, about heartbreak and about anger. I’m also forgetting things every day. I’m often asked if I have personal experience with Alzheimer’s and I do—my late grandmother had Alzheimer’s. But I’m hesitant to place too much emphasis on it, because though it resembled Howard’s at times, her experience was very different, and our relationship was nothing like Ruth and Howard’s in my book. It informed my writing, but wasn’t the reason I wrote this book.

The story unfolds through journal-like entries, which is really effective in offering intimate glimpses into Ruth’s state of mind. Why did you choose this format? Are you a diarist yourself?
I wish I could say I chose the format for some intelligent reason, but it wasn’t as much a choice as it was what was possible for me. I didn’t know how to write a novel, but I did know how to write paragraphs. Stringing those paragraphs together was how I was able to write this book. I had been reading books like Sleepless Nights by Elizabeth Hardwick, Speedboat by Renata Adler, Play It As It Lays by Joan Didion, Why Did I Ever by Mary Robison—short books made up of much smaller pieces. And these were books that, despite their length, nevertheless made an outsized impact on me.

I am not a diarist, but last year I started writing in Tamara Shopsin’s Five-Year Diary, a little notebook that has five spaces on every page for every day of the year. There’s only enough space for a few lines, so it’s something that’s easy to do right before bed. The point is so you can look back on the year before, or five years before, and see how your life has changed. That’s been a useful exercise in perspective.

Goodbye, Vitamin is part break-up story, part Alzheimer’s story, part family story, part coming-of-age tale. Piece it all together, and it’s a novel about memory. Has your way of thinking about memory changed for you since writing this book?
Something that I thought about memory, and still feel now, is that it is incredibly crappy material we have to work with. It’s faulty, it’s inaccurate, it’s misleading. It leads us to believe relationships are better or worse than they are; it stops us from forgiving us or allows us to forgive too readily. “Memory is shitty,” was the main thing I thought about memory when I started the book, and I still think that now. But while my thinking on memory hasn’t changed—I still think it sucks—writing the book was a way to come to terms with it, in a way. It’s a frustrating thing, but there’s something beautiful, too, about this flaw we all share. It’s human, and it’s imperfect, but it’s what we have.

What kind of research did you do into the effects of Alzheimer’s—both on the individual and on the family?
I don’t have a good answer to this question! I read a lot on the subject—from books to discussion threads on Metafilter and Reddit. But a lot of it was imagination. It’s easy to imagine your own memory much worse than it is. We’re forgetting things every day, all the time. I don’t have to look too far for examples of that in my own life.

Ruth is such a great character. I loved when she listed things that take up room in her brain (and she wishes wouldn’t), like the lyrics to “We Didn’t Start the Fire” and various taxonomic ranks. What are a couple things taking up unnecessary room in your brain?
As a kid, I was a big fan of the Babysitter’s Club series, and to this day every personality trait of each of the Babysitter’s Club members is still rolling around uselessly in my adult brain. You’d think I should be allowed to free up that space in the hard drive and be better at, I don’t know, geography.

Food doesn’t play a big role in Goodbye, Vitamin, which surprised me considering all the food writing you’ve done. Was that intentional?
I started writing fiction long before I ever wrote about food; this novel, too, preceded the food writing. Though food—both cooking and eating—is certainly one of my interests, it’s just one. People have actually told me that they’re surprised by how much food there IS in the book. I think, in the same way that people have different thresholds or tastes for humor or violence or sentimentality, they have sensitivities about how much food is in a given book. So it’s interesting to me to hear these different reactions. I didn’t intentionally leave food out, nor did I intentionally include it. I tried to correctly represent how often a human might think about or talk about food, and it might be abnormally high or low, but I only have my own experience to go on!

If you had to pick, do you think Goodbye, Vitamin is more tragic or funny?
Hopefully funny!

You’ve said that you never thought you’d write a novel. Now that you have (and it turned out so well!), do you think you’ll do it again? And again?
Writing a novel has always been the dream, but it always seemed daunting and impossible, the same way that, when you’re young, it seems impossible that you’d ever possess enough money to be able to buy a car or house. As it turns out, being older really helps, and the main factor in writing a novel or buying a car is simply accumulation of little things into a bigger thing. I’m working on my new novel now, and it’s very different. Decidedly NOT a diary.

 

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of Goodbye, Vitamin.

Author photo credit Andria Lo.

Rachel Khong makes her fiction debut with the small-but-mighty Goodbye, Vitamin, the story of 30-year-old Ruth, who moves home to help care for her aging father, Howard, who was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Khong, the former executive editor of Lucky Peach magazine and the author of All About Eggs: Everything We Know About the World’s Most Important Food, makes us laugh once again as she shares the secret behind her first novel’s diary style and shakes her fist at memory.

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